Title: Textile Workers of America Oral History Project: Herbert S. Williams Interview
Inclusive Dates: 1978

Creator:

• Williams, Herbert S., 1905-

Call Number: Tape 721A

Quantity: 3 tape recordings

Repository:

Wisconsin Historical Society, Division of Library, Archives, and Museum Collections

Archival Locations:

Wisconsin Historical Society (Map)

COLLECTION MAY BE STORED OFF-SITE: see catalog entry to request materials and for additional information.

Abstract:

One of a series of tape-recorded oral interviews conducted with Textile Workers Union of America leaders by James A. Cavanaugh of the Historical Society staff, documenting the origins, growth, and decline of the TWUA, internal disputes, relations with other unions, and organizing drives. The interviews document textile unionism prior to the formation of the TWUA, as well as discussing major strikes and gains made through collective bargaining. Specific references are made to organizing activities in Illinois, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Wisconsin. The Herbert S. Williams interview is part of the Textile Workers Union of America Oral History Project.

Language: English

URL to cite for this finding aid: http://digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/wiarchives.uw-whs-tape00721a

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Herbert S. Williams, born in 1905, grew up in and received a grammar school education in Nashville, Tennessee, and has spent the major portion of his life there. He worked for fourteen years in the printing trade and went on the staff of the International Printing Pressmen and Assistants Union of North America in 1936. In 1937 he was hired by the Textile Workers Organizing Committee (TWOC) as an organizer in Tennessee and at the end of that year became TWOC's Alabama State Director. From that time until his retirement in 1964, Williams served as director for various southern states and regions for the Textile Workers Union of America (TWUA), spending most of his time in Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina. He served on the TWUA Executive Council from 1941-1964.

Interview

I [interviewer James Cavanaugh] interviewed Williams for two and a half hours at his home in Nashville on October 5, 1978. Williams is a short man who, before a series of health problems, was once very heavy set. His accent and speech patterns leave no doubt about his southern roots.

Williams was selected as an interviewee for the TWUA Oral History Project because of his long service on the Executive Council and in the South. Unfortunately, age has caught up with his health and his memory, and the interview is of limited usefulness. Williams was particularly weak on the tough questions about southern organizing, the decline of TWUA, and other topics which require some interpretive thought. Interspersed throughout the interview, however, are some quotable quotes and a few nuggets of opinion, attitude, and detail.

Abstract

The tapes for this interview have two tracks: a voice track containing the discussion and a time track containing time announcements at intervals of approximately five seconds. The abstract lists, in order of discussion, the topics covered on each tape, and indicates the time-marking at which point the beginning of the particular discussion appears.

Thus, the researcher by using a tape recorder's fast-forward button may find expeditiously and listen to discrete segments without listening to all of the taped discussion. For instance, the user who wishes to listen to the topic on “Hired by TWOC” should locate the place on the second track of side one, tape one, where the voice announces the 10:25 time-marking (the voice says at this point, “Ten minutes, twenty-five seconds”), and at this point switch to the first track to hear the discussion. The discussion on “Hired by TWOC” continues until approximately 13:15 at which point discussion of the next topic (“The Textile Industry in Tennessee and Alabama”) begins.

Notice that in most cases sentences beneath each headline explain more about the contents of the topic. For example, the sentences underneath “Hired by TWOC” give further details on what appears on the tape between 10:25 and 13:15.

The abstract is designed to provide only a brief outline of the content of the tapes and cannot serve as a substitute for listening to them. However, the abstract when used with the index will help the researcher easily locate distinct topics and discussions among the many minutes of commentary.

Index

There is a master index for most of the TWUA Oral History Project interviews in the collection-level finding aid.

Documentation of the TWUA in Williams' geographic area is scattered throughout the general files and the Research Department files of the Historical Society's TWUA collection. Williams maintained no personal files of consequence.

Processing Information

Finding aid prepared by James A. Cavanaugh, February 15, 1979.

Tape/Side   1/1 Time   00:00	Introduction
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   00:30	Biographical Background Scope and Content Note: Born in 1905 in Tennessee. Parents died within twenty-four hours of each other in 1928. Ninth grade education. Took a hobo trip in the early 1920s, engaged in the wheat harvest, and joined the Industrial Workers of the World because all the other wheat harvest workers belonged. Was in the Army before he was sixteen years old. Was a member of the International Printing Pressmen and Assistants Union of North America for fourteen years. Helped organize his printing shop as well as other shops in Nashville on his own time. Served as local president for two or three years before being hired as an International representative. Worked for the Printing Pressmen for a little less than one year and was then hired by the Textile Workers Organizing Committee (TWOC).
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   06:20	Came to TWOC Because He Believed in Industrial Organization Scope and Content Note: He saw how in the printing industry the employers would play the five crafts off one against the other.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   06:50	Typographical Union Strike at the Nashville Banner, 1928-1938 Scope and Content Note: During this ten-year strike, the other crafts continued to work, including Williams' local. This was a prime example of the need for industrial unionism. The strike was finally settled because the company claimed it was losing one million dollars a year due to subscription and advertising cancellations.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   10:25	Hired by TWOC Scope and Content Note: Steve Nance, TWOC southern director, hired him as an organizer and assigned him to work the area from Nashville to Jackson, Tennessee. Nance wanted him to start immediately and permitted him to continue his job with the Printing Pressmen, in addition to his TWOC duties, for four to six weeks.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   13:15	The Textile Industry in Tennessee and Alabama Scope and Content Note: The industry in Tennessee was largely cotton, hosiery, and synthetics, with some wool. In Alabama it was cotton, hosiery, and knitting, but no wool.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   14:30	Bemis Bag Company Scope and Content Note: At one time the TWUA had twenty-six of the Bemis plants from coast to coast. These were mostly bag plants with 200-300 employees each. There were only two organized cotton mills in the chain, one of which was in Bemis, Tennessee (near Jackson), and it employed about 1,350.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   16:45	Williams' Positions with TWUA Scope and Content Note: He was hired to work for TWOC in July 1937 and in December 1937 was transferred to Alabama to serve as state director. He went down to Alabama for a two-day convention and wound up staying seven or eight years. He then returned to Nashville until the 1952 secession movement, when he was assigned, mainly as a speaker, to North Carolina in an attempt to prevent locals from seceding. He was then sent back to Alabama as state director (for two years); then to North Carolina (as assistant southern director) for five years. He was acting Deep South director while Boyd Payton was in jail as a result of the Harriet-Henderson strike. Concurrently, he was named South Central director, which took in his former territory, plus South Carolina and Mississippi.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   22:15	Constant Shifting of Regional Boundaries and Directors Scope and Content Note: “I don't think it caused too much friction among the staff; and the members, they're going to gripe anyway.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   23:40	Retired from TWUA in 1964 after the Internal Fight Scope and Content Note: He was on the losing side in that fight. Although he was not pressured to retire, the old feelings were no longer there, and there was the possibility of subtle pressure to retire. “Don't kid me about these unions, because I know a little about them. They don't have to beat you over the head with a club.... They can shanghai you off to places where you can go nuts; and I knew several of them places down South. Then I says, 'Well, I think I'll just break it while I got a chance.'”
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   00:00	Introduction
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   00:30	Employment after Retirement from TWUA Scope and Content Note: Williams went to work as a court officer in Nashville. He retired after five years, returned two years later, worked two more years, and quit.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   02:55	Working for TWOC Scope and Content Note: His paycheck came from TWOC headquarters. He did not service any of the Tennessee hosiery mills; the American Federation of Hosiery Workers took care of them.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   03:50	TWOC Constitutionalized to Become TWUA Scope and Content Note: Williams thought John L. Lewis was pressuring for the creation of more international unions. Williams does not feel that creation of the constitutional organization brought politics into the organization to the detriment of organizing activities. He sees more politics in the Industrial Union Department's organizing attempts today than he saw in TWUA.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   07:00	Southern Offices of the National Labor Relations Board Scope and Content Note: The Atlanta and New Orleans offices were helpful to labor while the Winston-Salem office seemed anti-labor. Their characters were set more by the people who worked for them than by their geographic locations.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   08:55	The 1939 TWUA Convention Scope and Content Note: Williams and everyone else felt the textile industry would be organized. They went back to work after the convention at half pay with no meal allowance.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   10:10	Organizing in the South in the Late 1930s Was Not Easy Scope and Content Note: In Memphis, “we had a gentleman down there by the name of (E.H.) Krump. He was the Czar. He says, 'No damn CIO will ever come into this town.'” He had organizers followed all over town. He ordered A. Philip Randolph out of town. Finally, the resistance was broken down, and Memphis today is the best organized town in Tennessee.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   14:00	Servicing in Tennessee Scope and Content Note: When Williams was director of the area, there was only one joint board, in Memphis. Thus, more of the local service fell on the shoulders of the state director than in states with a more developed joint board system. Large locals that could pay their own way would hire business agents, however.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   17:10	World War II Scope and Content Note: It was easier to get contracts then because of the War Labor Board. Williams did not notice a dramatic influx of women workers into the textile mills; their portion of the textile work force in Tennessee and Alabama remained fairly constant at 40 percent.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   18:35	A Southern Cotton Conference, Not a National Conference, Would Set Contract Policies for the South Scope and Content Note: The South would wait for the northern settlement and then try to get as much of the same things as possible. A company with an organized mill in the North would be cooperative with the Union at that mill but not even recognize the Union in its southern mills.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   20:40	TWUA Influence Varied Greatly from Place to Place Scope and Content Note: TWUA had a big, strong local at the Rock Hill (South Carolina) Printing and Finishing Company and pretty much had things its own way. At a shop of the same company in Rockingham, North Carolina, the Union was unable to prevent the workers from crossing the picket line, and the shop was lost. Northern companies would often invite the Union in to help them, but in the South they resisted the Union to the end. An example would be the Union's campaign to get a one-price cotton system so that Japanese manufacturers would have to pay the same price for American cotton as American manufacturers. Southern companies greatly appreciated the Union's efforts and eventual success in this matter but would not let the Union organize them.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   22:30	Why It Was So Difficult to Organize the South Scope and Content Note: A lot of it had to do with the rural backgrounds of the mill workers and also the powerless position they were in. For many years they were paid in scrip. In Huntsville, Alabama, where there were about 9,000 people working in textile mills, many of them were not even allowed to vote. The jurisdiction of the police extended three miles outside the city limits, but the people living within that jurisdiction could not vote.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   25:40	Southern Employers Scope and Content Note: In New England, employers would take the Union in more or less as a partner after a time, but in the South, they would resist the Union's efforts to organize and would attempt to get rid of the Union as quickly as possible. Williams has difficulty explaining this difference, but southern anti-unionism pervades the Chambers of Commerce, the merchants, etc.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   00:00	Introduction
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   00:30	J.P. Stevens Campaign Scope and Content Note: Williams believes the Union will win after a long, difficult time. This will not make the other southern mills easy to organize, but it might soften them a little.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   02:20	TWUA Strikes during World War II Scope and Content Note: The Union's threat to rescind its no-strike pledge, if the government did not move on the Cotton Case, was serious. The Union did have some work stoppages during the war, but they were not officially recognized. Anecdote about a wartime strike in Gadsden, Alabama: An Army major - “a hell of a nice guy, and he was a Republican, too” - kept calling Williams about the strike, and Williams would not come to the phone. Finally, the International told Williams to get in touch with the major. Williams claimed ignorance of the strike but agreed to meet with the major and the company. Because of the power of the military, the strike was then settled within hours. Throughout the war, Williams employed this strategy of using the government to put the “squeeze on” the employers.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   07:25	CIO Sentiment for a Labor Party Was Minor
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   08:05	Lack of Radicals in TWUA Scope and Content Note: At the very beginning of TWUA “around in North Carolina, we had several pinkos working in there, and they got rid of them.” Larry Rogin and the Education Department probably contributed to the lack of Communists in TWUA. Pat Knight, however, seemed to be a Communist sympathizer.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   10:45	Highlander Folk School Scope and Content Note: Rogin recommended that TWUA contribute money to Highlander, but “everybody on that Executive Board didn't see like Larry Rogin did at that time.” At first Williams liked Highlander, but then they began singing the “Internationale” regularly at the school, and Williams never returned to it. Southern Director Roy Lawrence hated the school, and Williams also worked against TWUA contributions to it.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   13:15	Roy Lawrence Scope and Content Note: “I liked him.” “Very competent...; pretty hard-headed at times.” Many organizers did not like him. George Baldanzi tried to dump Lawrence from the Executive Council at the 1948 convention because “George was surrounded by a bunch of them long-hairs... and Roy wasn't....”
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   15:05	The 1950-1952 Internal Fight Scope and Content Note: Although President Emil Rieve and Executive Vice President George Baldanzi worked pretty well together for ten years, “there were some feelings” during those years. During the fight, Secretary-Treasurer William Pollock “was scared to death.” “Baldanzi began to reach out in all directions. Then he began to take just a little more, little more, little more. Finally, they had a run-in.” Baldanzi could have been elected president in 1950. Baldanzi was just getting too ambitious. The first Williams knew of any problems between Rieve and Baldanzi was at the 1948 convention when Baldanzi tried to dump Lawrence.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   20:45	Baldanzi's Major Supporters Scope and Content Note: Williams could not figure out why they supported Baldanzi.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   23:30	The 1951 Southern Cotton Strike Scope and Content Note: Williams went to North Carolina to try to convince locals there to support the strike.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   00:00	Introduction
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   00:30	More on the 1951 Southern Cotton Strike Scope and Content Note: The Union figured if it could get a wage increase at Danville, Virginia, it could get one in the rest of the South. Cone Mills were also important; Williams worked with the Cone Mills locals during the strike. Calling the strike was a mistake.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   01:55	Secession: Erwin Mills, Durham, North Carolina Scope and Content Note: Williams was sent in to try to save this large mill which employed 3,000-4,000. “And, my God, I couldn't get within three miles of that damn place.” Williams presented his credentials at the bank, but he was too late; there was only one dollar left in the local's account. “And that feeling is still there, as far as I am concerned, with those people up there. They hated me worse than they ever did hate Rieve....”
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   04:20	Democracy as an Issue in the 1950-1952 Fight Scope and Content Note: Aside from Baldanzi people complaining about Roy Lawrence, Williams was not aware of much concern amongst the membership about the selection of regional directors by the International.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   05:40	Baldanzi's Southern Support Scope and Content Note: “People down South are very emotional, and Baldanzi could lift you out of your seat making a speech. And I think that had a whole lot to do with the way the people felt down South towards George Baldanzi.”
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   06:45	Mariano Bishop Was Selected to Oppose Baldanzi in 1950 Because It Looked Like He Had a Better Chance to Win Than Anyone Else
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   07:20	Why the 1951 Southern Cotton Strike Failed Scope and Content Note: Williams cannot say, unless it was lack of funds.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   08:25	Baldanzi Could Have Stayed with TWUA after 1952, But It Would Not Have Been the Same
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   09:10	Support for Baldanzi in Tennessee and Alabama Scope and Content Note: Dwight Mills, in Gadsden, Alabama, the biggest local under Williams' jurisdiction, was very strongly in favor of Baldanzi. Local 204, Anniston, Alabama, also supported Baldanzi. No locals in Williams' jurisdiction seceded, however. Williams settled a strike for the Dwight Mills local about the time of the secession movement, and he felt this probably helped keep the local within TWUA. Also, Baldanzi had not spent much time as far south as Alabama.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   10:45	TWUA Efforts to Prevent Secession Scope and Content Note: “We worked our cans off. We was at the gates every morning, noon, and night, passing out them damn leaflets. I hate them damn things....” TWUA staff people would go to the homes of seceding members and be ordered off the porch at gunpoint.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   12:15	Decline of TWUA Scope and Content Note: The main reason was mill closings. One major reason for mill closings was the lack of one-price cotton. Foreign textile manufacturers could buy American cotton for eight cents a pound less than American manufacturers could buy it, and thus imported cotton textiles would sell for less than those produced domestically. Meanwhile, the cotton manufacturers would purchase foreign-made machinery, and the American textile mill machinery manufacturers would buy foreign-produced steel. Research Director Sol Barkin continuously warned of the poor state of the textile economy, but Williams recalls no serious warnings about mill closings.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   14:40	Williams Felt It Became Harder to Organize Textile Workers during World War II
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   16:35	The Mood of the Executive Council in the Mid-1950s Scope and Content Note: The vice presidents began to “chew their fingernails,” but they did little to attempt to reverse the decline. They started the wage agitation drives, but there was not much in the way of organizing drives.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   19:25	The People Involved in the Mill Were the Key Factor When the Union Was Able to Organize Scope and Content Note: This includes management as much as the workers. Example of the varieties of management types: in a J.P. Stevens mill in Great Falls, South Carolina, the foreman in the spinning department is very friendly with the workers, “and they can get by with a hell of a lot of things where over in the weaving department they get fired for it.”
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   21:50	Emil Rieve Scope and Content Note: “Very capable.” Self-taught. A good mixer with both employees and management. Good politically, on both the state and national levels. Good in important negotiations. His skills were in administration, not organizing.
Tape/Side   2/2 Time   24:45	Beginnings of the 1962-1964 Internal Fight Scope and Content Note: A couple major incidents came up and were settled. and then, Pollock had a big argument with Wes Cook.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   00:00	Introduction
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   00:30	Why Williams Joined the Majority in the 1962-1964 Internal Fight Scope and Content Note: After Pollock and Cook had their big argument, Pollock cut off much of the International's aid to the Synthetic Division; and that is when Williams fell out with Pollock.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   01:50	The Majority Asked John Chupka to Run for the Presidency Scope and Content Note: Secretary-Treasurer Chupka told them he thought he would, but he needed a day to think about it. They saw him two days later, and he refused to run. Williams had no idea why he changed his mind.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   02:45	Even Pollock's Allies Had Run-Ins with Him, and Some Considered Opposing Him Scope and Content Note: Harold Daoust, at first, sided with the Majority in their fight with Pollock to get themselves raises. There was a morning meeting at which Pollock refused the raise, got emotional, and shed a tear or two. In the afternoon, Daoust was on Pollock's side. Jim Kelly, who had been chewed out pretty heavily by Pollock, nevertheless supported him in the fight. William DuChessi played both sides of the fence before finally supporting Pollock.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   05:00	Why the Members of the Majority Opposed Pollock Scope and Content Note: Most felt like Williams did; grievances against Pollock had been building up over the years. Many of them had been working to get rid of Pollock for quite some time before Williams became aware of it.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   05:55	Employer Use of Race and Ethnicity to Fight the Union Scope and Content Note: Although employers used the race issue, Williams did not feel it hindered his efforts much. Huntsville, Alabama, was the first local in the TWUA to have a black steward. Employers used ethnicity almost as much, purposely mispronouncing the names of TWUA leaders to make them sound more foreign.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   09:00	The Resolution Condemning the White Citizens Councils at the 1956 Convention Scope and Content Note: The resolution was passed after a floor fight and not another word was said about it. Those who opposed it did so because they were racists. Two locals in Columbia, South Carolina, were the most vocal in their opposition to the resolution, and they were also the most racist. They “wouldn't have a colored man on any committee...and didn't care whether he even joined the Union or not.” The leader of one of these locals, Ed Kirkland, “died a member of our Executive Board.”
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   11:00	Williams Found It Easier to Organize Blacks Than Whites in the South Scope and Content Note: Perhaps they were just glad to have someone show interest in them.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   11:25	Organizing in the South Scope and Content Note: The Clothing Workers, the Ladies' Garment Workers, and the Laundry Workers all experienced the same difficulties as the TWUA. The Rubber Workers and the Steel Workers, however, have had less trouble, partly because they were organizing a more educated worker, a worker with “more guts.” Organizing in Gadsden, Alabama, was a joint effort with organizers from the Rubber Workers and the Steel Workers passing out leaflets at Dwight Mills, and organizers from TWUA returning the favor at rubber and steel mills.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   13:50	Loss of the CIO Cooperative Spirit Scope and Content Note: Williams noticed that the type of cooperation exhibited in Gadsden by fellow CIO unions was disappearing by the time of the AFL-CIO merger.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   14:35	AFL Unions' Superiority Complex Scope and Content Note: The building tradesmen, in particular, used to needle Williams during his organizing efforts. Nine out of ten of them still today do not care about the minimum wage, because it does not affect them directly, or the checkoff, because they are hired from the union hall.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   17:10	Employers Sought Union Help Outside the Gate But Would Not Let the Union Inside Scope and Content Note: This was particularly evident during the Union's campaign for one-price cotton. DuPont was particularly notorious for taking the Union's assistance whenever it would help the company, but fighting organizing to the utmost.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   18:05	More on the 1962-1964 Internal Fight Scope and Content Note: The Majority began to caucus separately from the full Executive Council about eighteen months before the 1964 convention. Regarding the Local 1790 issue, Johnny Miraglia was not guilty.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   20:10	The Decision to Run J. William Belanger and Cook in 1964 Scope and Content Note: Belanger “liked to be in the sunshine quite a bit.” Victor Canzano preferred to needle from the sidelines to get his points across. Canzano had personality and competence. Cook was very capable but did not have much personality. Belanger “had personality with certain people. Other people, he could turn that nose up at you just like one of them New Englanders.” The Majority could have found one or two others just as capable as Belanger and Cook but selected those two because they appeared to have the best chances of winning due to their large constituencies in New England and in the Synthetic Division.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   22:00	The 1964 Convention Scope and Content Note: Williams thought right up to the convention that the Majority would win. Then at the convention both factions held caucuses concurrently, and many more delegates attended the Administration's caucus. He was surprised at the strength Pollock had. The Majority went wrong in that they did not do their homework properly; they would make good speeches, but they would not follow them up with actions. Emil Rieve's speech at the convention was intended to play on the sympathy of the delegates; it would not have been in character for him to back down and make a conciliatory speech at that time, even though it was obvious the Majority was going to lose.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   25:10	Williams Never Believed the South Resented the International Sending Northerners in as Regional Directors