Subseries: Kazmer, Mary A.

INTRODUCTION

CHILDHOOD AND FAMILY BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born and raised in Chicago, Kazmer's father worked in a foundry. She graduated from high school in 1936 and worked in Dorfman's food store on Ashland Avenue between Chicago Avenue and Division Street--a Polish and German neighborhood.

DESCRIPTION OF DORFMAN'S STORE
Scope and Content Note: The store had “a little counter,” “shelves all around the store, and they had showcases in front of it with food, and they had an old-fashioned refrigerator.... As I visualize it now, it had cubicles where you opened one, and there was a tub of butter, while others had lard, cheese, quarts of milk.” Sugar and flour were piled in bags on the floor, as were rice and other grains. The refrigerator was quite large. Her work included “everything.” She got the job through a newspaper advertisement.

HOW SHE PROCESSED ORDERS AT DORFMAN'S
Scope and Content Note: “If you asked for a pound of butter, very rarely people asked for a pound of butter because only the very rich were able to afford a pound of butter....” Sugar could be bought in five-pound bags, but most bought smaller quantities because it was so expensive. She would weigh sugar for customers. Butter was sold in bulk, too. Each article was requested separately by customers. Prices were added up on a bag. Later, the store had a cash register which added the items. Women saved used ten-pound sugar bags for dish towels.

WHERE DORFMAN'S GOT ITS MERCHANDISE
Scope and Content Note: Most items came from warehouses, but eggs, butter, cheese all came from different suppliers. “You didn't order very much because it was a very small store.” Deliveries to the store were made twice a week. “Maybe you sold a hundred pounds of butter a week.”

PEOPLE THEN SHOPPED EVERY DAY FOR FOOD
Scope and Content Note: Ice boxes were used just for short periods of storage. “I don't know how people managed without refrigeration, but nobody had refrigeration in those days--only the very rich.”

MORE ON ITEMS DORFMAN CARRIED IN HIS STORE
Scope and Content Note: He carried no special ethnic foods until he moved the store to a Scandinavian area on North Avenue. He carried few vegetables and fruits and no fresh meat. “There was luncheon meat,” which was not pre-packaged, and which had to be cut by hand.

DORFMAN'S OPERATING HOURS
Scope and Content Note: “Heavens. He was open from 7 o'clock in the morning 'till 11 o'clock at night.” On Sundays he was open from 9 a.m. until 3 p.m.

KAZMER'S WORKING HOURS AND WAGES
Scope and Content Note: She worked 12 hours a day, five or six days a week, and made $4 a week when she began.

DORFMAN'S STORE ON NORTH AVENUE
Scope and Content Note: He expanded and modernized the store. “There were a lot of Scandinavian people added to the Polish and the German. It was a mixture of neighborhoods.” He added some new equipment to this store. Employees included Kazmer, Dorfman, his wife, a schoolboy, and later, as business improved, perhaps two other men. Men mostly stocked shelves, except on Saturdays, when all employees waited on customers from behind the service counter. “They were lined up four and five deep some Saturdays. He had terrific bargains.”

WAGES AT DORFMAN'S NEW STORE
Scope and Content Note: She got a $2 raise, but Dorfman also helped in other ways by giving her groceries for her family. By then her parents had died. “They were nice to me.”

SHE AND HER SISTERS WORKED AND LIVED TOGETHER AFTER HER PARENTS DIED
Scope and Content Note: She had five sisters, one of whom died while she was working at Dorfman's on Milwaukee Avenue. “I was the oldest. Our parents died when I was just out of high school. It was terrible. You wonder how we survived.” “When I look back, why didn't someone take care of us? It just seemed no one cared or anything. Our parents died, and we were left all alone.” An aunt did help some. The youngest sister was just three years old when their parents died. When Kazmer married, she and her husband took the sister with them. “She stayed with us until she got married. Hard life, Jim. Hard life.” “God compensates. Today, all of us kids have it pretty nice.”

DORFMAN'S THIRD LOCATION WAS ON MILWAUKEE AVENUE IN CHICAGO
Scope and Content Note: “There, he really prospered in the Logan Square area.” He hired two men, one of whom was married. The store itself was a little smaller than the one on North Avenue. He moved there in 1936 or 1937. It was a Polish neighborhood. “It just seems like he did well in a Polish neighborhood.” There, she made $15 a week. The store remained open until 11 p.m. because the nearby Logan shopping center stores were open until 10 p.m., and people walking to the shopping center would stop in at Dorfman's store. She worked 12 hours on Saturdays and Sundays.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

KAZMER MARRIED AND MOVED TO KENOSHA
Scope and Content Note: The Dorfmans bought a summer house on Lake Michigan near Kenosha. She met her husband-to-be, who lived next door, during a weekend visit. They were married, and she moved, with her little sister, to Kenosha. A daughter was born 18 months later. She did not work again until her daughter left home for college.

SHE WORKED FOR STEIN AND RAYMOND'S IGA STORE IN KENOSHA
Scope and Content Note: Just after her daughter left, she answered an ad for a job in this small store on 75th Street. It was a small supermarket with grocery carts, but the store was noted for its meat department, which employed five meat cutters. The store was not as large as today's “convenience” stores, like Open Pantry. The store was unionized by the Retail Clerks International Association (RCIA) and the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workmen (AMC&BW). She stocked shelves and cashiered. She worked there for a year and a half. Business began to decline when National opened its new store at 77th and Sheridan Road. Stein and Raymond closed the store because of the competition and the meat cutters' demands for higher wages. A former Jewel Tea store manager bought Stein and Raymond's but was unable to make a success of it. The store had two checkout counters, but both were used only on Saturdays. She worked 20 hours a week.

SHE BEGAN WORK FOR NATIONAL WHEN THE STEIN AND RAYMOND STORE CLOSED
Scope and Content Note: “That was really a modern supermarket.” She was given a two-day training session in Milwaukee. The session included tips on customer relations, training on a cash register, and instructions for bagging groceries. She also had to take an arithmetic test. Later, when she worked for Copps, young women did not know simple arithmetic. National required employees to take a yearly training session.

A NATIONAL CHECKER SUPERVISOR OCCASIONALLY CONDUCTED IN-STORE TESTS
Scope and Content Note: Named “Millie,” she would bring a basket of groceries to be checked out and would require that checkers charge unit prices. “We were just deathly afraid of her.” The supervisor was fired perhaps because of checker complaints.

KAZMER WORKED AT NATIONAL FOR SIX AND A HALF YEARS UNTIL HER HUSBAND DECIDED TO CHANGE JOBS

MORE ON MILLIE, AND MYSTERY SHOPPERS
Scope and Content Note: Other stores, like Copps, employed mystery shoppers who checked the accuracy of checkers. Millie made checkers too nervous. Copps had mystery shoppers “almost every month.”

MORE ON NATIONAL AND HER WORK THERE
Scope and Content Note: “It was a beautiful, modern building” with eight checkout stands. She noticed a difference between the IGA and National stores: “It was greater efficiency, but it just didn't seem like you were able to get too personal with the people, which I missed. Because you get to know the people, then you pass the time of day with them, and it just seemed that the people liked a neighborhood store.” She still sees old IGA customers who say they miss that store. “Now the supermarkets are all so impersonal. Efficient, yes. But impersonal.” Working at National was enjoyable and “quite a challenge. It was just go, go, go.”

HANDLING GREEN STAMPS AND IN-STORE COUPONS
Scope and Content Note: The store did great business, in part because it issued green stamps. Neither the stamps nor coupons presented a great problem for checkers. The number of stamps issued had to correspond to total sales and coupons. Stamps were not issued for cigarettes. Stamps were very carefully accounted for by management because they were so costly.

CHECKERS' CASH DRAWERS WERE CAREFULLY CHECKED FOR ERRORS
Scope and Content Note: Store managers might not mention $1 or $2 shortages. Excessive shortages could result in dismissal. “I never had a problem. My drawer was never, never short, thank God. I'm glad it's over.” It was a big responsibility. Fifteen years ago, she might take in from $3,200 to $3,500 on Saturdays. Today, checkers probably take in over $6,000.

MORE ON CHANGES IN CUSTOMER RELATIONS
Scope and Content Note: Customers do not like long waits. “We were told, 'Pass the time of day, hello, and how are you, and that, but just keep on going. No running conversations.'” Her old IGA customers often would come into her store. She would tell them, “We just can't. We just can't stand and talk. I'm still the same person.... But we just can't talk at the check lanes unless there's no one waiting.”

UNION STRENGTH AT STEIN AND RAYMOND AND AT NATIONAL
Scope and Content Note: Salesmen were allowed to stock shelves at Stein and Raymond. The RCIA insisted that this practice be prohibited at National because it would lessen the hours available for clerks. The Clerks local business representative, Paul Whiteside, often followed up employee complaints that management violated contract provisions on salesmen stocking shelves and visited stores to get management compliance.

SHE MOST APPRECIATED INSURANCE BENEFITS THAT TOOK EFFECT WHEN EMPLOYEES WORKED OVER 24 HOURS A WEEK
Scope and Content Note: “Thank God, all these years of struggling for that insurance has paid off.” Insurance for retirees is especially reasonable and helpful.

AT NATIONAL, SHE NEVER WORKED MORE THAN 32 HOURS A WEEK

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON HOURS AND BENEFITS
Scope and Content Note: Managers tried to keep her hours below 24 to keep her from receiving benefits. Some managers were “brainwashed” by the company to keep hours down, but “seniority prevails”--those with the most seniority got 24 hours a week work. Benefits were very important, and one employee especially “would cut your throat for those hours” because of the benefits. Kazmer wanted to work the 24 hours, especially if she was entitled to them by virtue of seniority.

THE SENIORITY CLAUSE CREATED PROBLEMS AMONG EMPLOYEES IN JOCKEYING FOR MORE HOURS
Scope and Content Note: “You wouldn't believe. It was a three-ring circus with some people.” In one case, an employee had 15 minutes seniority over another. Seniority also came into play when choosing days off, including Saturdays.

NUMBERS AND KINDS OF EMPLOYEES IN THE NATIONAL STORE
Scope and Content Note: The store had “ten checkers, a service desk girl, manager, assistant manager, produce manager, two people in the produce department, five in the meat department, and stock boys--I would say a good 30 or 35 people.” Most checkers were full-time, because contract provisions prohibited employing two part-timers instead of one full-timer. There seems to be more part-timers employed today, perhaps because the contracts have been changed.

THE CHECKOUT PROCEDURE AT NATIONAL
Scope and Content Note: First, they had to clear the register. Then, “the customer put the groceries up, and you say, 'Good morning,' and start checking away.” It was important to check the bottom of shopping carts. “That was a very, big concern for the managers.”

CHECKERS HAD TO BAG THEIR OWN ORDERS EXCEPT DURING VERY BUSY PERIODS
Scope and Content Note: Customers often complained about the “poor service.” Management wanted baggers to stock shelves. Rivalries occasionally developed between checkers for good baggers. Baggers, in turn, could be selective. “If you were a nasty sort of a person, they wouldn't bag for you.” Baggers were important to customer relations. Customers often felt sorry for bag boys, but in those days, they were making $7 an hour. Bag boys were not allowed to take tips.

RULES FOR GOOD BAGGING AND KEEPING COSTS DOWN
Scope and Content Note: “Use as few bags as possible, and use the proper size bag.” She tried to keep all cold items together. Managers told her: “Don't waste register tapes, don't waste bags--it's all profits going out the door.”

WORK RULES
Scope and Content Note: They had to be to work on time, take no more than 15 minutes for breaks, treat customers well, keep clean, handle packages carefully, listen to complaints. “But you know, the union sure stands in back of people. There were people--how the customers would complain about them. How nasty they would be.” They had to wear uniforms, which management furnished.

SHE TRANSFERRED TO A NATIONAL STORE IN DELAVAN WHEN HER HUSBAND TOOK A NEW JOB THERE
Scope and Content Note: She earned about $2 less an hour at the Delavan store than in the Kenosha store. The store was in the early union organizing stages. She began work in October; the store was unionized by December 1. “Things really changed.” Before the store was unionized, the head checker assigned hours at will. Union regulations required assigning of hours according to seniority. The store did a good business from the tourist trade and from weekenders.

BUSINESS DECLINED AFTER NATIONAL REMODELLED THE STORE AND SUPER VALU OPENED A STORE IN DELAVAN
Scope and Content Note: In remodelling, National put in new counters and check stands, freezers, meat counters, shelves.

JOB RESPONSIBILITIES AT THE NATIONAL STORE IN DELAVAN
Scope and Content Note: She stocked the drugs and sundries department, candy and cigarette stands, besides her checking duties.

THE NUMBER OF CHECKOUT LANES INCREASED FROM FOUR TO SIX WHILE SHE WAS THERE

NATIONAL'S DELAVAN STORE WAS OPEN NIGHTLY UNTIL 10 p.m
Scope and Content Note: High school girls were employed. Kazmer worked evenings, too.

SHE ENJOYED WORKING IN DELAVAN'S SMALL TOWN ATMOSPHERE
Scope and Content Note: “I wasn't there very long, and I practically knew everybody in town.” “It was just a different--shall we say maybe more personal, because it was a small town, that you felt closer to the people.” People were “more relaxed,” although they worked constantly.

NATIONAL'S MANAGER IN DELAVAN TREATED EMPLOYEES WELL
Scope and Content Note: Bob Ketchpaw “really looked at you like you were a person and not just a number. He valued you.” National's district manager replaced Ketchpaw, however, because Ketchpaw apparently was not producing enough from the store.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON KETCHPAW'S PROBLEMS
Scope and Content Note: The district manager did not like having checkers stock frozen food cases, among other things. Ketchpaw was transferred to the assistant manager position at Elkhorn and later demoted further.

KAZMERS MOVED FROM DELAVAN TO MILWAUKEE SO HER HUSBAND COULD TAKE A NEW JOB WITH BORG TEXTILES
Scope and Content Note: Her husband had worked for Snap-On Tools in Kenosha but decided not to move along with the rest of the traffic department to Ottawa, Illinois, and to take the Borg job instead. Then he was transferred to Jefferson, Wisconsin, until he retired.

SHE WAS UNABLE TO FIND A JOB WITH NATIONAL IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Her Delavan store manager told her he would recommend her highly, but that he had heard National might be closing its Wisconsin stores, and that she likely would not get a job. Because her husband had suffered a heart attack while still in Delavan, she was concerned about getting a job quickly because of job benefits.

UNABLE TO GET WORK WITH NATIONAL, “I GOT MYSELF A LITTLE JOB AT GIMBELS” AS A WAITRESS FOR SIX MONTHS

HER UNION ADVISED HER TO RETIRE (SHE WAS AGE 55) AND KEEP UP HER INSURANCE
Scope and Content Note: “Which I was very happy to hear, and that's what I did.”

AFTERWARDS, THE KAZMERS MOVED TO FORT ATKINSON, WHERE SHE GOT A JOB AT COPPS
Scope and Content Note: An employment counselor told her she would have difficulty getting work at Copps because of her age, but a 74-year-old bagger at Copps encouraged her to apply for a job. She did and started work two days later. “And, of course, they are just wonderful to work for. They have no union, but how I enjoyed working for Copps. How I cried when I left there.” The Copp family treated her well.

WORKING CONDITIONS AT COPPS
Scope and Content Note: She was hired at Copps' minimum wage, but she did receive several merit increases. She was a checker, had a bagger to help her, and stocked shelves in the sundry and drug departments, as well as candies. She declined the company's offer to train her for work at the service desk because her husband planned to retire in two years, and the Kazmers planned to move back to Kenosha.

MORE ON MERIT WAGE INCREASES
Scope and Content Note: “If you are slow, they told you right out, 'You don't deserve it, you're only getting a nickel, or a dime, or you're not getting any thing at all,' or you even got bawled out--the girls would come out crying....” Merit increases created some jealousy among employees. But “no one was mad at one another.” Some employees did recognize they had problems. The company was a stickler about accuracy in checking.

HOW HOURS WERE SCHEDULED
Scope and Content Note: Merit evaluations played a role in granting hours. She usually got the hours she wanted, although she worked part-time and did not get benefits. High school students were hired at lower wages and were given Sunday work. “There was no seniority. They just gave the hours to whomever they pleased.”

THE RCIA MADE NO EFFORT TO ORGANIZE COPPS WHILE KAZMER WAS EMPLOYED THERE
Scope and Content Note: “It didn't seem like the people were aware of the union.” The turnover was big. Student employees came and went.

CHECKERS SOMETIMES DEVELOPED LEG AND BACK PROBLEMS
Scope and Content Note: Some employees developed varicose veins, slipped discs and other problems. “At the end of the day, your shoulders were mighty, mighty tired from lifting all the groceries. But I don't know as it hurt you. In fact, I think all that lifting is good for a person.”

THE WORKING AND LIVING “ATMOSPHERE” OF FORT ATKINSON WAS NOT AS “UNRELAXED” AS KENOSHA, NOR AS “RELAXED” AS DELAVAN
Scope and Content Note: “On the whole, it was friendly and nice.”

COMPARISON BETWEEN RCIA LOCALS IN KENOSHA AND DELAVAN AREAS
Scope and Content Note: “The contract was almost the same, except that the Milwaukee area had a higher wage scale.” Union service always was good, especially from Local 1444 President William Moreth. “He was never too busy to talk to all the little people.” She also received good help from Paul Whiteside Jr., in the Kenosha area. She was not as pleased with Paul Whiteside Sr.

SOME NATIONAL EMPLOYEES FILED MANY GRIEVANCES, BUT SHE NEVER DID

THERE WAS ANTI-UNION SENTIMENT IN DELAVAN
Scope and Content Note: One National employee was forced to quit her job by her father, who was a company president and did not want his daughter to be affiliated with a union. Other employees associated unions with Jimmy Hoffa. “And I tried to tell these kids, 'Don't be afraid. They are working for you. You will be protected. Your job will be protected.' Of course, when National went out of business, it wasn't protected.”

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MOST IMPORTANT CHANGES IN SUPERMARKETS OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS
Scope and Content Note: The newer cash registers made it much easier to cash out machines at the end of a day. More departments in stores meant more department keys on the registers. Once supermarkets became established as major retail food sources, however, she noticed few other changes.

SHE “LOVED” HER JOB AND MISSES IT
Scope and Content Note: “I enjoyed working with people, and I just enjoyed my job.” Her husband wants her to retire from her job at Goodwill, but she finds it difficult to do so. She especially misses working in food stores. “I just love the food markets. But I will never work in a food market again.” She remains an astute shopper and pays close attention to store operations, especially checking and bagging. “When I worked, if some customer complained that the chicken dripped all over, you were called to the office, and you were really bawled out. So I feel as a customer, rather than have it happen that I come home and my other groceries are ruined, I'd rather tell the boy, 'Why, honey, put it in a plastic bag.'” Some resent her telling them that, but “I don't think that they should for the wages that they get.”

SHE AND HER HUSBAND LIKE THE MANAGEMENT AT THE LOCAL SUPER VALU STORE
Scope and Content Note: The store is unionized but with less wages than at the Kohl's store. Still., the service is better and friendlier, perhaps due to the manager or to training. The checkers at Kohl's are “surly.” She always told new checkers to remember that customers pay their wages, and to be nice to them. She thinks Kohl's checkers “just don't care, they just don't care,” perhaps because of all the years of “drudgery” they have put in.

END OF INTERVIEW